332: County Fair Mentality 2.0

0:00 Opening: news and current events

0:00Welcome to Beyond the Ring, a podcast that covers all things in the stock show industry from the informative to the insane, starring Ryan Rash. Some people keep it simple. I am not some people. And Dale Hummel. Expect nothing. Appreciate everything. Now on with the show. Welcome to Beyond the Ring. This is Dale Hummel along with co-star Ryan Rash. Hello, hello, hello. Ryan, neither you and I have watched enough news to have much for current events.

0:46The only thing that I've really got for current events is Trump decided to import 300 metric tons of beef, I think. I don't know. It's a very large number. I did not put tariffs or anything on it. And so cattle beef producers are livid and justifiably so. And so I'm going to say this on here because a lot of people have talked to me. I've seen a lot of stuff on social media. Do I think this was a great move? No, I don't. I am the biggest Donald Trump supporter in the world. I don't understand this move. I want to think that there is something that we don't know, that it's going to pay off in the end and be okay. I don't know that. But this goes against his whole America first policy. And this is the first time he's really done something like that.

1:41The only thing that I can think of, and I'm not saying this justifies it, but midterms are coming up. The cost of everything is so high. And what he said in his statement is that he was going to make it considerably cheaper for Americans to be able to buy beef. If there is no thing in the background or in the future to make this right for the beef producers and the cattle ranchers, then all I can think of is he's trying to do some things for midterm elections to help keep the majorities. But I don't think that justifies it. There's no trying. And we'd never want to get to hear on this podcast and justify what he did. But you're not missing anything. It is that clear. It is that simple. We're going into midterms. He wants to bring the cost of beef down to appease the populace. He's going to call it what you want, throw the cattle producers under the bus. Hopefully it's not more than short term. I don't like it. But his reasoning is to bring prices down to ease things going into the midterms. And if you tried to justify, and again, I'm not. I'm just saying if you tried to, you can say for the greater goal, we're going to go

2:57through some short-term pain. So therefore, all the people that have messaged me, texted me, and snapped me about Trump, I've addressed it. I don't agree with it. I still think he's the greatest president of my lifetime. Next. Screwworm. Screwworm. I haven't talked about it for a while. The USDA, as of August 10th, has confirmed 45 U.S. detections. That's not that many, in my opinion. I don't know if they're not looking or if they're not populating. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm going to call it a win. I'm going to call it good. I still think we need to be prepared for the long-term screw worm and take a breath and work through it, as many other countries have done for decades.

3:38But so far, so good. I also want to talk about it's been much better I mean and I don't give any credit to anybody in the government for this but it has not been nearly as big a problem as what I thought it was going to be I thought it was going to be just absolutely awful and we have weathered the storm remarkably well I would agree I thought it was going to explode much larger than what it has at this point I didn't know if it was going to truly shut down animal production like some we're talking about. But I do believe it's still going to be hard to contain. I assume numbers are going to continue to bump up.

4:21Maybe they're calming the world and not testing that many. I don't know. I have no idea. I do know that Minnesota continues to be a pain in the ass for the entire country. There you go. Vouching. Have you heard about vouching in Minnesota? Fauci in Minnesota? No. No Fauci, vouching. Oh, no. So you can vouch. Election day, same day registration. So if you can go register the day of the election, and if you don't have a form of address or you can't establish a permanent address that you can even live in the state of Minnesota, as long as somebody goes with you that is registered or has proof of residency, they can vouch for eight other people.

5:08to say, oh, they live in Minnesota. Then all they have to have is a driver's license, which is pretty easy to get in Minnesota, or the last four digits of a social security number, which there are plenty of those running around. So this has happened in 2024. Obviously, it's going to happen again. One registered voter vouches for eight others. Now that their pushback or their giveback is, if you're vouched for, you cannot vouch for eight others. you're not allowed. Can you believe how stiff that penalty is? Oh, Jesus. Unbelievable. Just unbelievable what's going on up there. And it continues. We're going to have rogue states like this. And I hate to say it, but I'm in one of them right here in Illinois.

5:52I don't know if we're to the level of Minnesota, but we're not far behind. And it's a problem. Huge, huge problem. And we don't have a lot of current events this morning, Ryan. We actually had, I don't know if you'd call this a story that came into question, an answer that I'm going to put into current events this morning. It's a little longer. I'm going to paraphrase for the people that send it in just to shorten things up a little bit. Good morning, Dale and Ryan. My daughter and I love listening to your podcast. I wanted to share our experience from this past weekend at the Indiana State Fair showing yous. This year, Indiana introduced a wether dam division during the weather weekend, which was great change. It a lot of breeding sheep to have a mortal type-like show.

6:35So for our audience, this year, I believe, was the first year they have wether dams that you could show all the sheep breeds in. And you have what we call frame sheep, where you can show all the sheep breeds. Two different shows, two different judges. Had to show different sheep in each show. Which there's always that battle, right, between the wether dam type and the frame sheep. And depending on who the judge is and what sheep show up, it tends to go one way or the other. And that's just how it is. So I appreciate that Indiana did separate this and kind of recognize that there's two different segments of the breeding sheep world and going two different directions.

7:14We were fortunate to make it to the Supreme Drive on Sunday night. My son, a four-year 4-H member, showed his U with the help of his older sister. We show an off-breed, a Tunis. So we went in with realistic expectations. Tunis U ultimately took grand supreme U. This win felt like the perfect combination of all the efforts they put in over the past couple years. They were not expecting this by any means. They knew they had what they would call an off-breed, yet still trying to progress. Unfortunately, the high was temporarily deflated right after the show. A senior 4-H member stopped me in the barn to say we didn't deserve it and that a different breed should have won.

7:56Over the next 24 hours, that exhibitor's family and associates posted negative comments about the top five across social media. I chose not to respond to avoid the turmoil and briefly felt the sting of the syndrome as a situation that I had no control. However, something incredible happened. Both friends and strangers online began defending my kids, praising our youth and supporting the judge's decision. The influx of supportive texts and messages was overwhelming. As loud as the negative was, the positive praise was much louder. We started in this industry six years ago, knowing nothing about showing sheep. We chose to focus on breeding sheep because it suits our family, even though it makes competing against clubby style sheep difficult at the county level.

8:43The incredible support we experienced this weekend reminds us why we love this community and makes us want to keep thriving. I'm so proud to be a part of this industry and look forward to many more years. So Ryan, I did get a lot of texts that the Tunis won the breeding sheep or the framed sheep show at Indiana. Unusual. I wasn't there. I didn't see all the others. But I would say unlikely, very, very unlikely that was ever going to happen. what I would like to bring to this conversation is that family that took that Tunis out there and did all they could to make that Tunis look as good as they could I don't throw any darts at them I don't even know that I throw darts at the judge that chose to choose that because I didn't see what was there and he was hired to come in and choose whatever he thought was the best if I'm going to throw any darts on a situation like this if I was upset and didn't think things went as well as they should have. I would maybe just discuss how that judge was selected and whether or not that judge was mainstream or that's what they wanted as far as a frame sheep judge. So

9:53I would like to take the pressure off the exhibitor. They didn't go out there. I don't believe they were politically correct with the judge or anything like that. They simply took the sheep out there and it won. Don't throw darts at that person. If you want to make change, if you felt something was wrong, visit the people that are hiring the judge and have them vet the judges just a little more. Help me out here, Ryan. Well, as someone who constantly and is known for using what is considered off breeds to win or be in the top five, stuff like that. These people, the people that were being rude online or whatever, y'all can get bent. That's just dumb.

10:40Judging is an opinion. It is not a scientific equation or calculation. It is an opinion. Does it need to be an educated, current, knowledgeable opinion? Yes, it does. I don't know who judges the show. I don't care. He went out there, she went out there, and did exactly what they wanted to do and picked the ones they wanted because somebody didn't win that they thought should win, whatever. To hell with that. They did what they wanted to do. It's great for this family. What I think is the shit part, and I say this all the time, it does not matter who wins the show. The worst thing you can do if you're mad or angry or upset or all that bullshit is go on social media and start bashing the sheep, bashing the judge, bashing the family, all this other stuff.

11:29Because I always say, put yourself in those people's shoes. What if you had just won Supreme at the Indiana State Fair? And then somebody goes on there and starts bashing your animal or your kid or the situation and all this stuff. You would want to take that person's head off. This lady took the high road. I probably wanted to. but you would be pissed off as hell because you were ruining that moment for that family and that exhibitor and you wouldn't want that to happen to you. Very simple. Very well explained. I think in this industry, and I'm going to use another example, I talked about this a few weeks ago.

12:10I had received a call, a text from a family that are clients of ours and their son had passed away in an accident, one of our really good, great young showmen in this industry. And the support that came out for him and the support that continues to be given to his family and a scholarship, I believe, that's been placed in his name is overwhelming. Unfortunately, yesterday I had another call from a young man that was showing for us in Wisconsin. He said that a good friend of his had just passed away, another young cattle showman. and this is going to happen in our industry and it's hard to swallow.

12:52The positive side, just like the young man earlier, this 17-year-old, Adam Massman, that was recently lost here in an accident, actually playing in a sporting event, the support that this community is giving is unbelievable. And this goes back to a lot of things, Even the information that the gentleman in Indiana talked about in his breeding sheep show, how a lot of them came to support him. And when we have something serious at this level happen, it seems like this industry pulls together as strong as any out there. And we keep talking about it, Ryan. I heard you talk about it in your supreme speech and showmanship at Indiana just yesterday, that we have something pretty special here.

13:38and we need to embrace that and try to keep it as positive as we possibly can. And to Adam's family, I want them to know that our thoughts and prayers are with them. And as a community, we're going to do what we can to continue to support one another. So thank you very much. Exactly. Everything that you said 45,000 times over, but a terrible situation that happens and got to band together and support each other. I do want to, since I was going to bring it up anyway, this was my second year to get to sort Supreme Showmanship at the Indiana State Fair.

14:18And I can't put into accurate words how cool, how much that meant to me, all the things. Just really one of the most memorable events that I've ever got to do. And I said it on the mic and I'll say it here. Every state fair is special. Indiana State Fair is just magical. And it was just so that that event for I bet there were 500 people in stands that came back and they were not fair goers. That these people came back just to watch the Supreme Showmanship on the last day when they've been gone for weeks.

15:03some of them, and to support those 10 kids that were out there vying for it from the fireworks, the flames, the music, all of it. I just... And I know lots of state fairs do stuff like that. I don't know any state fair that has the supreme showmanship as a separate event and treats it just like if it was the grand champion market drive at the deal. It just... Absolutely amazing and just so, so cool to get to do it. Very, very appreciative and had a lot of fun. Excellent.

15:45I got to watch that, Brian, and it was enjoyable. I'm amazed. I think about it where Indiana puts it at the end. And heck, I was at the Indiana Sheep and Goat Show, it seems like a couple weeks ago. It was a long time ago. yet people are coming back and supporting this particular event. That's fantastic. Well, Ryan, as soon as we get done recording here, I'm heading to the Kentucky State Fair. It's still State Fair season. I need to get down there and assist clients. If we can leave early enough, we might make it in time to get wait cards or help turn in wait cards. So off to another one. That should be enjoyable. Any other current events that you may have?

16:27No, I don't have much. Why aren't animals drinking at shows? Chlorine. Only Show Fresh H2O neutralizes it and they have three patents to prove it. You can purchase Show Fresh H2O at your local supply trailer or at swampfox.com. I would like to welcome back our longtime sponsor, Merck Animal Health. Anyone in our industry knows that effectively managing your time and hitting breeding windows are crucial to success. SenseHub Cow-Calf from Merck Animal Health gives you the ability to improve both. With 24-7 monitoring, SenseHub Cow-Calf helps save time spent on visual checks and delivers data you can use to detect heats and make informed decisions on reproduction timing for AI and embryo transfer.

17:15 Why the county fair matters

17:16This changes everything. Learn more at sensehub-cowcalf.com. It is time. Ryan has been waiting for this one. It came to him during the trends episodes. County fair mentality 2.0. A little different approach this time to it. Yeah, we've had three county fair mentalities before, and then we've taken a break, and everybody wants it back, and all this other stuff. And you may not like this one as much as the other ones. I think it'll be the best one. So I judge a lot of county fairs. probably as many as anybody that's doing this right now. And my friends and my family and my people that are very close to me, including Dale, sometimes give me a lot of grief over it.

18:05And they're like, you don't have to judge every county fair that calls you. That is a no-win situation. You go in there and everybody's ready to rip you apart. And I can't say that any of y'all are wrong. I can't. because simply put, the county fair is the most dramatic place that you'll ever show. And there's two logical reasons for that. Number one, everybody wants to be a hero or a legend in their hometown. Number two, you don't ever get away from those people at the county fair. If you showed at the Indiana State Fair or any state fair and you didn't like who you're stalled by, you may never see that person again. At the county fair level, you're going to see these people.

18:47You're going to see them at school. You're going to see them at the football game, the grocery store, church, all this stuff. So you never get away from them. So the rivalries become more intense. It becomes more dramatic, climactic, all the things. And that's why the county fair is the most dramatic place to show. And going in as a judge, yes, you know that, or at least I do. And are people going to gripe at you more at that level than any other? Yes. Are people going to throw you under the bus more at that level than anyone? Yes. But the point of this podcast is, for me, there is something very special about a county fair. And it is also a thing that there is a certain segment of the population that show livestock that the county fair is their ultimate goal.

19:39And if you don't understand that and don't embrace that, then you're just wrong. And that's why, because I know County Fair is your special. I know that all these things. That's why I go out there and do it. Because they deserve judges that are unbiased and have their hearts in the right place to it. Because some of those people, that is their Olympic. And simply put, if you look at numbers of animals being exhibited at the jackpot to the state fair to the national level, they're all up all over the country. There's more. There just is. And county fair number levels, as I said, I hear it at every county fair that I go to that their numbers are down and decreasing.

20:30And this is a problem that we have to address and we have to take it seriously. Because if we don't, When you lose someone that the county fair is their end goal, they don't decide to just go on and show at the state fair or at the Arizona National or whatever. They just quit. They're done. They don't show anymore. And we can't have that. There's several points, Ryan. And that was so well put. your last one right there, when they decide not to show at the county fair and that that is their show, you're right. It's not like they're just going to go to a different jackpot show. If you're not showing at jackpot A, you can go to jackpot B. Or if you're not going to Kansas City, you can go to Louisville or Arizona or Denver or wherever it may be. And Ryan and I were, Ryan had came up with this topic. And I know that obviously we'd done this before and we kind of pick on the county fairs and make fun of some crazy rules and all the crazy that happens. And that still happens.

21:00 Why county fair numbers are declining

21:34We're not trying to say that isn't there. But when we stop and take a deep breath, the county fair is a backbone of our industry. And we have to pay a little more attention to it. I'm guilty. My children participated very little at our county fair for several reasons. In part, we didn't want to go in and dominate the county fair because we're showing at a national level and it would be very difficult for other families to do to succeed in the goat show ring if we chose to go in there and pull in with our best animals and so forth we would go in and and take some animals on occasion so we could get through master showmanship to get to the state fair master showmanship. But in general, there was a lot of drama at the county fair. If we were to show up, it wouldn't probably be well-received by some. And the rules and how things are done different, just because they don't know any different, that's all they've ever seen is what was going on in that county. That's frustrating for a lot of us that show at jackpots, state fairs, national shows. And one of the easiest things to do, the road that I took, and I'm not saying

22:47it's right by any means, but we just avoid it. And that's the easy route. When we think about the county fair being the backbone of everything else and whether we're participating in it or not at this point, most of the people that are in the livestock industry, the show industry, did get their start. That would have been one of the first places they showed at was their county Fair. So we can look at it from so many different angles. And as breeders, brokers, enthusiasts, show families, every segment of our industry relies on the county fair having success.

23:27And we need to keep that alive. We need to get it to thrive. So instead of walking away from it, like I did, maybe we need to dive in and as an industry, get more involved, try to give more support, more guidance. And I know it's frustrating. I understand the battles of the county fair, whether it be with a judge that comes in because they didn't have a big enough budget, they had to bring somebody in from a local county or neighboring county, I should say, from the county fair board, maybe having this ego trip that they finally have control of something in their life and they're going to show that control and make some rules that make zero sense.

24:06Maybe it's the superintendent that's not getting paid and only one that would volunteer for it, that has good intentions, but just hasn't been anywhere else to see what's going on. There's a lot of reasons that the county fair can be what we call county fair crazy, and it can be a lot of headaches. But if we don't step up and try to support this, I think we're losing a very critical part of our industry that we cannot afford to lose. And we'll talk about why there are problems and what they are and how they need to be addressed and all this other stuff. But I think Dale says it very well. The problems at the county fair are very fixable. That's the thing. There's a lot of things that we can't fix. These things are very fixable.

24:53and if you do that and you fix them, then your numbers will grow and continue and that's what you've got to have. And I'm going to be honest with you, through brokering animals and all that for years and my own experience, etc., I don't mind judging county fairs at all. Like I said, I do them. On the other side of it, there's literally knots in my stomach every single time I'm at one. And I'm just being honest. I have seen more horrific things go down at a county fair.

25:38And I'm talking not from a judge's perspective. I'm talking about when we're showing up. And then I can even tell you about. I've said on this podcast before, I begged my mother every single year. to not make me show at the county fair. I begged because it was just such an awful experience for me every single time. Mean, hateful. I mean, just you can't even imagine it. And she was not relent. We went every single year and she was going to just pummel those people regardless. And I'll never forget my junior year because our county fair was always after Houston.

26:20I was literally sitting in the kitchen in tears, begging her to not make me go. And so I get it. I understand it. I understand all the frustration. We've got to address the problems and make it better and make sure that this level of show, which is really the backbone of this whole industry, where you get your start, etc., continues to have success and continues to be an important part of this industry. Agreed completely. And I want to look at the history and maybe that's telling for us, Ryan.

27:03And I'm getting old, so I can think back way back when the local county fairs around here is what I'm going to speak to for the most part. But I think it was pretty consistent across the country. At one time, county fair numbers were huge, not just at an isolated county fair like we find now, but most county fairs, there were a lot of animals being shown. At our local county fair right now, I'm going to say there's 20% or less of the animals being shown than there were at the peak. So it's really fallen off. Why has it fallen off? For a lot of things that we've talked about already. And when we make some of those decisions to not show there, Ryan, I think you made the point that Shrek was going in there just to pummel everybody.

27:52If you maybe backed off and didn't pummel everybody quite as hard, you might not have been as reluctant to go. But it was going to be drama because that's how it was going to be. And you had no choice when your mother was involved not blaming you for this, not even blaming Shrek. I get that, that sometimes there's a reason you want to go in there and pummel everybody at the county fair. I get it. I completely get it. But it probably doesn't foster a great environment. You would like to think that when somebody comes in at a higher level, it brings all the other competition up. And in some situations it does. Other situations, others just surrender and they walk away from it.

28:32And I think less numbers at the county fair now are in part due to more jackpot shows and more options on where show families can go and show. You can't replace the county fair, but you can go to a couple jackpot shows and say, hey, we still got the animals out. They still got in the ring. The kids still had that experience, but they're not getting that experience that they're there for several days hanging out with friends from their local area. things that my kids didn't get to do as much because I avoided it. So there's a lot of things that go into it. And one more that I want to bring out, and I know I'm kind of jumping around here. Ryan had talked about how he judges a lot of county fairs, probably as many as anybody out there.

29:16The difficulty for some county shows to bring in quality judges that wouldn't know the people showing there that are non-biased, not politically tied in any manner, is near impossible. Whether it's budget restraints, maybe the superintendent just doesn't know those people well enough to reach out and convince them to come to their county fair. When I get calls to do county fairs, Ryan, I don't accept very many of them. I don't accept very many shows, whether it's a county fair, jackpot, state show, whatever it is. Very few do I accept, more so because of my schedule and it's hard for me to get away at all. But I can assure you, I'm going to consider a state fair a lot harder than I am a county fair and trying to work that into my schedule. And as we're talking through things today, that probably needs to change because there are plenty of qualified judges that are willing and able to go out and judge state fairs.

30:00 The county fair judge shortage

30:15there are not enough qualified judges that are willing to go out and beat the pavement like what you are and judge county fairs. Some simply don't have the time to do it. There's a lot of reasons for it. I'm not saying they're not doing it just because they don't want to judge a county fair. There's a lot of things that come into play. But what I'm asking, and I need to do this myself, we need to try to fit those in. We need to try a little bit harder. And I think if we start patching up or trying to improve every piece of the puzzle at the county level, if we can bring those numbers back up, that does nothing but make our industry stronger and the most healthy that it's ever been. There are several factors that may be why somebody doesn't accept a judge a county fair, but you're also misleading them and fooling yourself if you don't think the biggest part of it is just what I've said.

31:11Nobody wants to judge a county. A lot of people don't want to judge county fairs because they know it's a no-win situation. And that's just the truth. Agreed. Agreed. And like I said, every time I do one, I know I'm headed straight into the Lions Den, you know, firing squad, whatever you want to call it. because that is where more times than not, all the drama happens and people get on the phones and get on social media and all this other stuff, yada, yada, yada. I mean, when we get done recording this podcast, I am going to pack up my hotel room in Indianapolis and I am going to drive to Ohio to the Monroe County fair where they put out a protest to get me removed as the judge in March.

32:02I remember this. I didn't realize this one was coming up right now. It's now. And do you know how many people have told me, do not go. Just do not go. This is the stupidest thing you have ever done. Do not go. And I get it. And I understand it. I was asked to judge the show. I have not heard one thing from anyone related with the show. Even after that, I'm going to show up expecting to judge. maybe I won't. I don't know. But I am going not to prove a point. I'm going because I was asked and those kids at that county deserve a judge that will take it seriously and be unpolitical, unbiased, etc. I doubt that I know one single person in Woodsfield, Ohio at this county fair.

32:53they're going to know me when I leave but there's just a lot of people that I mean I can't tell you the number of people I cannot believe you're going to go do this but it's what you should do and more people should be open to judging county fairs regardless I get people have jobs that you can't get away from a lot of times all this other stuff but I do encourage every single person that judges shows and does a competent, capable job, if you can, and a county fair calls, don't just immediately go, ugh, I'm not going to do this.

33:34I get it if you can't make it work. I get it if they can't get you enough money to where you're not losing money doing it. I understand those things. But if you can make it work and all those things, I strongly urge you to consider it Because one of the largest problems with county fairs and the reason they're on the decline is because of the judging situation. And that's just facts. That is just absolute facts. I've seen it too many times standing on the side of the ring. I hear about it every single week, multiple times a week from somebody. And most of the time, it's just random strangers that message me and say, how do we fix this?

34:20and it is a huge problem. And I understand that there's budget constraints. There's all this. I can tell you that if you are running a county fair and you have budget constraints, talk to your families that are exhibitors. They will find a way to raise money to get a judge that is competent and capable and not from the county or next door or two over. But if you need help with that, talk to them. They will find a way. I promise you, they would much rather either pitch in money themselves or have some type of fundraiser or find a sponsor or a donor or something and have a judge that they feel confident that if they take an animal out there that it's going to get a fair shake, then not.

34:30 Using exhibitor families to fund judges

35:15So utilize your families and exhibitors. Agreed completely. And that's a big deal. And sometimes I don't think we as superintendents or superintendents out there are reaching out to those families. And we just say our budget coming from the extension office or the fair board is X amount. Look harder. Dig deeper. Bring the show families in. They're going to help. They're the ones that it impacts the most. They understand this. they are going to jump in and help. When you think about on a budget restraint standpoint, and we're dealing with this at our local county fair, and I see others do the same, and Ryan, you've been asked to judge some species that maybe you weren't real comfortable with for various reasons. But in many county fairs, they will alternate back and forth. And the goats show between a dairy goat judge and a meat goat judge. And if it's a meat goat judge that year, they sort through the meat goats and then they sort through the dairy goats. They probably have very little idea of what they're doing in the dairy goats. I'm not saying there aren't people qualified to do both. I can assure you I am not. And I get in that situation. I try to sort those dairy goats

36:00 Multi-species judges and avoiding local judges

36:26kind of like I would dairy cattle, which is also very limited for me. And I can also assure you when we have the dairy goat judge come in and sort both the dairy and the meat goats, when we get into meat coat side, it's a train wreck. It just is. Not much different. Some shows will bring in one judge for the sheep and the goats. Generally speaking, if that's a livestock person, they can work through it all. But if it's a very single slotted person or species person, it may not go really well. Ryan, you get to do county fairs. They bring you in to do all four species. There are people out there qualified to do multiple species, but you need to put some thought into it. And they're coming from a very unique background. So I think there's some things to be thought through and to be said about that. And Ryan, when you go in, and I don't know how much you're getting paid for each county fair you do and so forth, but if you can find those people that are qualified across species, that probably does save some money and hopefully allows you to bring in a better judge.

37:33Those people are limited and I'm sure their schedules are pretty full. And I get many calls about shows that want multiple or want me to do or suggest somebody to do multiple species in it. And it's hard to find those. Ryan, you're probably doing more of those just looking in from the outside than anybody. I assume Monroe County would be one of those. Oh, yes. And that's when a county fair contacts me. Most times it is to do all species. And it is just because you say, then you only have one set of travel expenses, all this other stuff. And obviously, I can do all those species.

38:14And so, yeah, it works out well. And then from my standpoint of it, I would much rather go and take two, three days to sort all species and stay in one place than go show up the night before, judge one species and go home the next day. On my end, I would much rather stay there, do them all, get to know those kids, those families, that county better. Because even, I can't tell you the number, every single one, even if they're not showing that day or that species, they'll come up, they'll talk, they'll do all those things.

38:59that's what makes it enjoyable for me and kind of puts the other stuff that I have to deal with to the side a little bit because you do feel like you get to know that whole county a lot better when you're doing all of it. And so, yeah, but it does save a ton of money because if they're calling me to come do these Midwest County fairs or whatever, then they're probably calling other judges from out-of-state too. And so if you can pay one plane ticket and one rental car and one hotel bill instead of four, your world's ahead. But now I'm not telling everybody that they need to go out and just hire somebody to do all species just because it's cheaper.

39:48If you're going to do that, make sure that person can do all four species. And just because you ask them and they say yes does not mean that they should. I'm just putting that out there. Agreed completely. We can't build a model on how to fix every county fair. Each county fair presents its own challenges, its own difficulties, whether it's the economic side and they don't have the budget to bring in judges. Maybe it's just a situation where we don't understand how shows are run properly and we're still running the show exactly as it was 50 years ago. And that doesn't work. and that mentality at the county fair.

40:29And we're talking about a lot of things that us that maybe aren't partaking in them as much need to do to try to go in and help. But there is some give and take there. And those that have been rooted into the county fair system, whether superintendents, fair board members, fair managers, whatever it is, that answer, when an exhibitor comes up and asks, well, why are we doing this? Well, that's how it's always been done. I'm not accepting. that answer. You need to justify it. And if it's rational, that's fine. If it's just because how it's always been done and it's not working today, let's change it. That's not hard to understand or to fix. And if you don't understand maybe what's going on, if at all possible, and I'm talking to fair board members, fair managers, superintendents, just anybody that that county fair is kind of special and you want to continue to support it and make it even that much better, go to other counties that numbers are still really strong. Go to your state fair, go to some of the more successful jackpot shows or a national show if you can. Just get out and see how things might

41:43be done differently that might make your county show better if you implement some of the same. I can pull this down to the reason county fairs are inclined. There's two reasons I said that at So I don't know if you have a lot more to say on the judges part of it, but I understand all the things. Utilize your exhibitors, families. They'll find a way if it's a budget deal. if you're dealing with somebody that's just gonna like Dale said, we've done it this way, whatever I just, that's hard, hard, hard, hard to do. I don't know what the answer is for that person and I know there are people that run county fairs that have done it for 900 million years and they're setting their ways and all this other stuff I beg those people to try to find a different perspective.

42:37I just can't tell you, this is more of my messages than anything else, is about judges at county fairs and all this other stuff. Don't use the person next door or the next county over or anything like that. I have talked on here and Dale has talked on here. if you were that close, you were going to know somebody. Some person. It may be good or it may be bad, but you're going to know somebody. And even when you have every intention of going out there and doing a good job that is unbiased, unpolitical, all this other stuff, there is a subconscious level that I don't know if anybody else brings this up, but I bring it up a lot on here.

43:28There is a subconscious level that you cannot control that if you know people in the ring, that is going to affect your short. And it's just truth. And it doesn't, and as Ryan is stating there, it's subconscious. Whether it's intentional or not, it's going to be in the back of your mind. And you can't always avoid that. you're going to have some situations and some shows that you're going to know those. So try to be aware. Try to work through that as best you can. But it's always part of it. Let's try to limit how large of a part that is. Ryan, on the judging standpoint, and a lot of the kids off of judging teams catch a lot of flack for judging shows and sounding too much like a judging team kid and so forth.

44:15 Judging team graduates as county judges

44:19But I'll tell you what, and Ryan may disagree with this, as difficult as it is for so many county fairs to find people to come in and do a nice job sorting, there are a lot of very qualified kids coming off of judging teams that have had show careers, that have succeeded in judging contests, that have been through formal training for a contest, even though we know it's different when we hit the show. there's kids out there that have a livestock background, the desire, the enthusiasm. And if they're coming out of successful programs, more times than not, you can throw a dart at some of those kids. And at the county fair level, that's probably going to serve you better than just reaching out and hoping this breeder that maybe hasn't judged a show in 30 years will come and do it or things like that.

45:13So don't be afraid. And the county fair level is a great place for some of those kids coming out of college to get started. And again, let's give them a chance. Let's open up our minds. Call out to those judging coaches and say, hey, do you have anybody on your team or somebody that's graduated recently that can come in and do a nice job sorting the show? Not necessarily asking for the top 10 individuals at Louisville or anything like that, But hey, who on your team is capable of going out and sorting shows? When I was coaching, I would get those calls on a regular basis, multiple calls a week. And I would give those names out of current and former judging kids that are out there sorting shows that I'm getting some feedback on.

45:58So reach out and try to find those things. And there's a lot of effort, work involved in getting a judge in that's qualified. and you're not always going to get it right, but do the best that you can. And there's so, so many levels that we need to try to improve upon. So Ryan, I'm with you. The bottom line for me is there's no magical format, but those of us need that are showing at the national level, state fair level, even multiple jackpots that are maybe in the industry as breeders or brokers, we need to try to reach out to our local counties, maybe even some in our area more than one, and do just a little bit more to give them a push in the right direction to try to make each and every county fair as best it can be. That is the backbone of our industry, and I can assure you numbers are declining, period. And so the other thing that I want to talk about this is, and I literally just had two messages in the last 48 hours about this and they didn't even know that this was going to be this week's topic.

47:13And I said, hey, tune in next Friday. The other thing that drives people crazy at the county fair is the amount of asinine rules and how hard they make it for the exhibitors that are there on the show. And there's no reason for it. Absolutely no reason for it. But I'm telling you more than any other level, there is 900 rules because somebody won one year. And so they put in the, I'll just use me as an example, the Ryan Rash rule to try to prevent that person from winning next year. And it varies on all the things.

47:15 Arbitrary rules and exhibitor-friendly shows

47:54They don't ever call it the Ryan Rash rule. but they put rules in because somebody won and they want to make it more difficult for that person or that family to win the next year. And you know it's true, Dale. You've seen it a hundred times, thousand times, whatever. And the number of asinine rules that goes back to, well, this is how we've always done it mentality. This is such an easy fix. You don't have to do it. If the county fairs were more... I go back to Arizona Nationals. I don't think on a national level, there is a more exhibitor-friendly show that wants them to have the families and the exhibitors to have a good time.

48:40They go out of their way, all this other stuff. If you would take that mentality to your county fair and make it exhibitor-friendly, warm, welcoming, inviting, all of those things, make it easier. for them the week that they are there. Take out the asinine rules that have been there since the 1200s. I do not think that I can even describe to you the effect that will have on your show, making it better, but most importantly, the attitudes of the people that are showing at your show will be so much better. Agreed completely.

49:21And that, this is how we've always done it rule. I'm out. The Ryan Rash rule to try to put roadblocks in to prevent a family from winning, it doesn't work. It really doesn't. It punishes so many more. And not that state fairs always have the best rules, especially when there's a lot coming from the state fair office for people that maybe aren't in the animal industry that have some influence on them. But in general, maybe if the county fairs would follow something similar to what the state fair is doing, that would get you closer sometimes. Yeah, I agree. And not just that, you can look at the state fairs, but look at the national show rules too.

50:06I mean, there's some of them that have rules that I don't like. But overall, we're talking about how state fairs and national shows, the numbers are bigger than ever. So there's something in the county fair numbers are smaller than ever. There's something to that. So, yeah, look to them as guides. but I cannot tell you the number of people that continually year after year contact me and they're like, why do they have this ruling? Why do they make us do it this way when nobody else's county fair does it this way or no other show does it this way?

50:52This is just so frustrating. And so I understand that county fairs are run by a person or a group of people. Please, please, please revisit your rulebook. And if there are things that don't make sense to the masses, it may make sense to you because you may have put that rule in there. But if there is something that you're constantly getting questioned about or getting told, we don't like this, why do we do this? Just change it one year and see what happens. If it's not enforceable, get rid of it.

51:33If it's not enforceable, amen. That's every show. Absolutely. I know county fairs, Ryan, that every single year, rules are changing dramatically. Like from hair steer show to slick show back to hair show to no clipping pigs to all of a sudden full board, do whatever you want. I mean, there's a reason that all these rules are changing and it's usually not for the right reason to try to make it better and more consistent, more user-friendly. The reason is to try to prevent somebody or some family from winning. and they think they can change the rules to accomplish such, and that never happens, period. I don't know, and I'm not, I just, and do you have other points, I guess?

52:23No, I'm pretty good. I was happy when you brought this up, and we had a brief discussion this morning about what direction you were going to take it, and I was going to go down that road and kind of defend the county fairs as we have here and bring out the importance of it. So I'm pretty good. I just think we need to rethink because the county fairs, I'm going to talk about our local ones right here and some that I see throughout the country. There's some that are thriving, that are doing some of these exact things that we talk about, that have a phenomenal county fair auction. They're absolutely thriving. We didn't talk about that, but the auction sometimes helps generate more interest.

53:02and get more animals in there. And we've had specific episodes on county fair auctions, but that comes into play as well. We just need to try to do better at every level, whether that means that those at the county fair need more help, they need more support, maybe they need to open up their eyes a little bit to the broader picture, what's going on at other shows and why it works. All of those things come into play. So we have a lot to do, But I'm a little bit nervous that we are losing numbers at the county fair level. I'm telling you, they are declining all across the board. And because I hear it at every single show that I go to, every county fair that I judge, everyone that I attend, our numbers are down, our numbers are down, our numbers are down, our numbers are down.

53:54and they asked me what to do and I say the exact same things. I'll be honest, not all county fairs ask me, but some of them do. Like, how do we fix this? And this is what I talk about. And I do think that we've got to make a conscious and severe effort to improve things at the county fair because this is the backbone of this industry. This is where people start. Some people, it's the only show that they gear for, aim for, etc.

54:36And we cannot let it continue to deteriorate and decline because it's doing our industry a huge disservice and it's detrimental to the future and the health of the livestock show industry if we don't address this problem and do everything we can to fix it. And so that's why I wanted to bring this up and have this topic. I know it's not nearly as funny as the previous three county fair mentality topics, but this is a problem and we've got to do something. I agree completely. And I appreciate you bringing this to the table for an episode today because it needs talked about.

55:18It needs talked about. I'm ready for question and answer. and we have a sponsor. Beyond the Ring is proud to welcome SC Online Sales as our question and answer sponsor. It is the most trusted platform in the business, bringing more buyers and sellers together than ever before in the stock show industry. Thank you, SCO, for their continued support in the junior livestock industry. SCO Online Sales is where it all happens. Thank you, Show Circuit Online. Adam has our first question. I saw a video where someone was asked their three favorite or most memorable animals they had been a part of. I would enjoy to hear both Dale and Ryan's most three memorable animals that they have shown, sold, or have been involved with.

55:30 Q&A: most memorable animals

56:07Ryan, I don't know about three. Let's bring it down to two. How's that sound? Save some time. I don't understand this question. Two animals that are the most memorable for you. I can do it for you if you'd like. I really don't understand this. Like as a judge? No, well, I guess it could be anything. Yeah. Three most, the exact wording. I saw a video where someone asked, was asked their three favorite or most memorable animals that they had been a part of. Okay. Been a part of. Okay. So the first one for me was Vinny, my Hereford steer that won the Arizona national. I remember Vinny's stories yeah not only was that steer way ahead of his time for a Hereford and never got beat in breed and won as a Hereford a national show that alone makes him memorable to me but that KF had absolutely the coolest personality of any animal I have ever had in my life across species and he just loved to show.

57:18He worshipped me. We never... That's the only KF that I can remember that I went an entire year and never got beat in a steer showmanship contest. And it was as much credit to that KF as it was to my ability. And so I just... That KF was so important to me. I'm fixing to cry right here. Jesus Christ. That KF was so important to me. we left Christmas Day and on two days before Christmas I told John Ben I said I'm going to Phoenix with that calf and he said they don't have room for you in the truck and I said I'm going to Phoenix with that calf and so John Ben goes and buys a brand new Suburban and told Sheree to get rid the plane tickets and drove me to Phoenix behind the trailer with that calf.

58:17This is good. It's really good. And I have never cried so much on my way home from leaving the steer. Johnman offered them an insane amount of money to buy the calf back. They said, you can share him off. You can brand him. He just wants to take him home. And of course, that didn't work out. But yeah, that steer was something. Yeah, he could have funded their budget for an entire another year if they would have allowed that. And since I'm a crime mess, I'm not going to talk about another one. I'm good with that. Let's leave it with Vinny. I will go into a couple with me. Argentine is one that I tell people that they call and ask me what Angus bull that I like or want to talk about Angus cattle.

59:04And Argentine is an Angus bull. He was one of the very first calves that hit the ground out of embryos I brought up from Argentina through Canada and eventually into recipes in Canada, brought the recipes here, calved them out right at our place. We had four calves born, fleshmate calves, all four bulls that we end up going to Cattleman's Congress. And those four bulls have had a pretty big impact on the Angus industry at this point and have had more use than maybe I would have ever expected. that particular Angus bull and the reason we, that I went to Argentina was that I always heard about the Palermo show and the type of cattle that they have down there and I was looking at some of the show Angus cattle up here that were so flat and so narrow and we'd selected for some traits that maybe we lost our way going for some extremes in certain pieces and they weren't maybe as good built as what I thought.

1:00:00So I went down there and found cattle that I thought had shape. They had incredible feet and legs. And then I tried to sort out from real world cattle is what I would call them. Some that had enough look to get along in the show ring. We sourced the donors, made some recommendations, listened to the breeders down there on what we should breed those donors to, went through the embryo transfer process, got them through customs, got them shipped to Canada, the whole process. And when those calves hit the ground, I knew they're going to be something special, but Argentine hit me so hard. From day one, his skeletal build, his flexibility and athleticism, his muscular shape, particularly within the Angus breed, and the fact that he came from real world genetics that are out there performing and doing well every day.

1:00:51And he had enough look that I thought he could compete in the show ring. Just a very, very unique creature for me and I'm not quite as emotional about him as I am in Vinny. Argentine's still alive. He's at Griswold's right now. John was very high on those four bulls. We actually laid over at his place going into Cattlemen's Congress and he was wanting to buy Argentine very early on. We sold another one out of that group called South America that went to Coleman Angus and we held on to Argentine just for a while but eventually it all came back around and John was using him pretty hard there and selling some semen on him. So it's going in a very good direction, but that's a very special animal to me.

1:01:34The other one would be a wether buck we called Mufasa. He was probably from six, seven, eight years ago, probably the first buck that I thought that we had produced that was built like a show animal in terms of the skeleton that still had enough muscular expression that was ahead of his time in terms of just big legs and hair. And he was somewhat of an anomaly. And in the breeding world, when we get those anomalies, we get excited about them, hoping they're going to generate as such. But usually they do not. Because if you look at their genetics, it's not there. This is the outlier. Well, this particular outlier bred on consistently every single time and just made a big difference in our program.

1:02:22And those things are special. So, so Argentine and Mufasa would be the two that I would fall back onto. But Adam, interesting question. I hate you, Adam. You got Ryan pretty worked up. I hate Adam. Ryan, you don't have the height or anything of any? No, no, nothing. Well, you think maybe we can go find it? I doubt it, but. It's, it's in a pair, a pair of shoes somewhere. I'm sure. The next question comes from Landon. And I don't like this question, Ryan. It says, hello, Dale. Question for you. And you're emotional, so this is a good time for it. I hear you talk about using human conditioners for the goats.

1:03:00 Q&A: conditioners and separating wether dams

1:03:04Which specifically would you recommend for cattle? Good question because I'm not in the trenches every day. We didn't show steers this year. What was the question? I'm sorry. I hear you talk about using human conditioners for the goats. Which specifically would you recommend for cattle? I don't think we need to worry as much about drying out or stripping the oils from the hair and skin on cattle as what we see in goats. I'm not saying we want to do that, but not near as delicate as what the goats are. So I do think you need to do some research, ask those questions. I can't give you one. Can you justify some of the high-end expensive human conditioner?

1:03:44Well, for what we're paying for these steers, the amount of time we're putting into the heifers and steers right now, maybe. I would suggest doing some research, doing some experimenting. Try to find one that's going to keep that hair as healthy as possible. I'm pretty big on after we get them rinsed out and blown off as using some sure coat or show coat as a conditioning type product. I'm not saying I'm using it to grow hair or anything like that, but it seems to do a nice job of conditioning. So there's a lot of different directions. Ryan, you could probably help much more on this than I can. I think probably, first off, one of the biggest no-nos or things that people do wrong is they overuse conditioner, to be honest.

1:04:33I don't think it, I mean, yes, you need to do it, but I think it gets overdone a lot. And as far as which product or anything like that, I'm going to tell you that if it's anything that's any of those conditioner type things that are sold at any of the show supply trailers across the country, they're all going to be about the same and they're all good. There's nothing wrong with Main and Tail from Walmart. We're using that in the goat barn pretty heavy. I mean, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. every time that we rinse or whatever, we've got several things that we put in the bottom of a bucket and then pour the rest of it with water and then we throw that bucket down their back.

1:05:18But Maiden and Tail is one of them that goes in there. And so there's nothing wrong with that. Just be careful because like Del said, you can overdo it and you can strip some of the vital essential oils and all that stuff out and that's not going to do you any good. But do I have a favorite product? No. we've used them all, still use them all, whether it's main and tail or the spray ones that you can buy at any of those things. They all work. So that's probably not the answer he wanted, but. Excellent. Next question comes from Sam. Love the podcast. My question is, what are your thoughts on separating out the wether dams in both sheep and goats from the registered goats and the frame sheep? Basically what they did in Indiana this year, Ryan. Separating the wether dams from the registered goats, and the wether dams on the sheep side from the frame sheep.

1:06:10What is my opinion of that? Yeah, two different shows. Like, Indiana did it this year. It seems popular. I think it's fine. I mean, I've seen it both ways. When you separate it out, there's probably more emphasis, and those breeds, the defeated sheep breeds, probably think that they were taken more seriously that way. It's probably more fair for everybody, but I'm not going to tell anybody, quote-unquote, how to run a show, because every circumstance is different. But I think it's a good thing. I agree. I think anytime we can better cater to the exhibitor and make it more exhibitor friendly, similar to what Ryan was talking about earlier, absolutely do it. It's a good thing. I think that was very popular to separate out this year at Indiana. And they are two different worlds.

1:06:59And we need to accept that. And instead of trying to make them one, let's recognize the value in in both and go those directions. Ryan, thank you. This was good. I apologize. I've got to get packed up and run off to Kentucky. You're heading to Monroe County. So I was an early morning to get this recording in, but very much appreciate your topic idea. And I think this is one that I hope hits home and I hope people take seriously. Until next week, be safe. Y'all come back now, you hear? Transcription by CastingWords