331: The Trending Series Part 4

0:00 Opening: news and current events

0:00Welcome to Beyond the Ring, a podcast that covers all things in the stock show industry from the informative to the insane, starring Ryan Rash. I know someone is going to make my halo catch on fire today. And Dale Hummel. If it sounds like magic, it's probably a scam. Real progress is found in the mundane details. Now on with the show. Welcome to Beyond the Ring. This is Dale Hummel along with co-star Ryan Rash.

0:43Hello, hello, hello. And it is no longer just Dale Hummel, by the way. It is now Del Hummel, CEO, Esquire, Knighted, Hall of Fame, Illinois State Fair champion of the world. I think he's also the associate governor to Pritzker now. Pritzker, I did not see him this year at Illinois State Fair. I heard he was at Conservation World. You know what? I think, Ryan, he was there while you were judging the Weather Series. Oh, there's a lot of people around the world. He had 10 people there with him, and you had an entire barn full. I was going to say, I didn't see him, but there was a whole lot of people standing around that ring, which made it even hotter.

1:29It was warm. Very warm. 500 people crammed in a little barn. I was like, oh, my God, we're going to die. While we're on this state fair season, still in full swing, I thoroughly enjoyed Indiana, Wyoming, and Illinois state fairs. a few more to come yet. Iowa's going. Missouri's going. I'm going to close out Indiana this weekend. Wisconsin just happened. Yep. Katie made it up to Wisconsin. They're all going. We've got Kentucky and Colorado coming up. Nebraska, Kansas. It just keeps going. I enjoyed my trip to Wyoming. Their iconic outdoor grass show ring. You didn't judge in the outdoor grass show ring and the blazing sun. I have.

2:15I was simply there helping families, and I thought it was good. I liked it. I liked the Wyoming State Fair. I think I did the Champions of Champions deal that year, and I think it's a unique experience to do it out there on the grass in the blazing sun. It is very, very, very warm. I was there for the Champions of Champions and their actual junior show, and I watched the champion. It was really solid. I told people out there and I watched all four species and specifically the goats. Those 23 goats that came in representing their respective counties were as deep as I see it in any of the showdowns or anywhere.

3:02It was really good. I was impressed across the board on that. Illinois, they changed up their way they did their Coliseum or their selection of the champions in the Coliseum, where they had it split into two sides. And if you're on one side, you may not get to see one of the species because they were prepping and showing on the other side. So it made it a little awkward in the past. So I really appreciate the thought that was put into doing that. They did have one glitch, Ryan. What? When they brought the cattle in, they had the front row as their reserves and the back row as their champions. Uh-oh. And this, why do those things bother me so much?

3:44I don't know, but that does bother you really a lot. Mr. Rathbun could walk in between and get a good view, I think. He couldn't get way back and look at his champion front row. Don't they have a preview drive? They do. Yep. So, I mean, he's already decided. It's just ornamentation. And I shouldn't say I did not watch the preview drive, but in the past they have. So, I assume they did again this year, but they did. They have changed things up a little. So I'm not 100% sure, but in general, it was much more spectator friendly. You could see there was room to stand around the ring. There was room to get in the seats and actually still be able to see things.

4:24It was good. Other than that, I'm sure just somehow an oversight that that got done. But outside of that, and I don't know what it was like behind the scenes. I heard it was a little hectic getting the pigs into the Coliseum and so forth. That would be any Coliseum. Yes. This was still, even with that flip on the front row and back row, this was the best Coliseum event that I've seen at Illinois in terms of being able to view the livestock. So that is... Couldn't have been the best one. Katie wasn't in it because she didn't show. So it couldn't have been the best... No, the best organized or presented or whatever that means. You're just so rude to your daughter. Just so rude.

5:03I had a very enjoyable experience at the Illinois State Fair other than the microphone. So I am making a question about that today, by the way. I am making a plea to everyone in Illinois that listens to this podcast. If I start a GoFundMe, can we get the State Fair a new microphone system? Not that I'll ever get to judge there again. I'm not saying, but I think it would just be much beneficial for all the people that do get to judge there and the exhibitors. but you know I think that would be good I told the superintendent that I would make a strong campaign to the state fair to get that done if they wouldn't do it I would find a way to pay for it so he is very thankful of that and several I don't even have to start a go fund me now I don't know what they cost so we still may have to do that and I did have a couple other exhibitors come up they'd heard that I talked to the superintendent about that and they were willing to chip in on it but you're right that that that is terrible.

6:05It was bad. Yeah. And when it was working, you still couldn't hear very well. And part of the time, it wouldn't work at all. I did in across the road at the sheep, like two years ago. And that one was fine. Other than you're still like on a cord. And that gives me personal anxiety, but that one was fine. The goat one. Oh man, it was rough. And then the sheep one's better. It's still, I don't think the actual speakers have been changed out. So it's not as clear as what I would like it to be, but it's better. That makes or breaks the show from the judge's mental state, the people that are trying to listen, everything.

6:48And I don't, we've talked about it before. It all took me home from the goat show. My mental state was not good. It was not good. No, you were a mess. Just a mess. On a positive note, Indiana State Fair. Do you remember last year at this time what we were dealing with? lots of things sticks poking the goats to measure hair they did not poke the goats this year well there you go uh compliments to to mr willoughby he had it mapped out there's two guys there that appeared to be looking very close at the goats and they did have a guard to run through them i didn't physically watch them run the guard through them but i believe the goal was to make sure that the hair was a half inch or less on the goats.

7:33And to my knowledge, and I didn't watch every one, so I don't know this to be true, I did not hear of any goats getting kicked out. And nobody complained about it. So Dan Willoughby, I think you were behind that. Nice job getting that done well. And the Anna's doing all the good this year. The cattle committee put in a judge's suggestion box where the exhibitors could go up there and write down names of judges they wanted to see judge at the state fair and just a general suggestion box. And according to Mr. Dixon, it went over very well. And they are going to count up the vote getters and then take the top ones to their committee to be discussed and voted on.

8:17So Indiana, y'all are doing good things. Hopefully that incorporates serving their customer better. That's right. I believe it will. Indiana did not. They did have one negative. What? The goats were put in the horse barn that may be as hot as the Illinois State Fair Junior Steer Barn. It was bad. And the ring has some iconic poles in the middle of it that you have to navigate around as a judge. I, they don't, what? They've made them, no show's perfect, so I get that's not good. They have a top-notch Supreme Showmanship Judge for Sunday. Oh, gosh. And you will not be in the goat ring, I don't think, navigating.

9:00No, we're in the Coliseum. In general, it is good. And I believe there was an issue with the horse running into a pole or something last year. Oh, no. And the goats can run into poles. The judge can run into a pole. You would really be, if you run into a pole while judging, you, I don't know what to say about it. This was the best current events ever. No Iran, no China. No, nothing. Other than I really don't have many. And I still don't know why this is happening, which I'm not upset about it, depending on who replaces her. But press secretary is leaving. Now, she just had a baby, but I don't know if that's the reason. Or, I mean, we are two years into this almost.

9:43I don't know. But, like, Caroline's leaving. And when she first started, I thought she was a hot-ass mess. I'm not going to lie. Like, I was just like, oh, God. I remember. and she got better she did she got better I don't think that she ever performed to the level of Sarah or Dale's favorite little blonde that's on Fox I can't remember her name right now but I loved her too I don't think she ever performed to that level but she did a nice job I am very interested to see who they get to replace her she was much better than Circleback okay anybody is better than Jen Psaki are your favorite little I can't even remember the name of the cute little black girl that you hated so much.

10:31Oh, she was bad. What was her name? Petite Jean maybe it was Perry. She was awful. Jean-Pierre. The worst press secretary in the history of our country. Didn't like what she said. Didn't like her. Nothing. I don't like you even talking about her being cute. she's physically physically no no she looked like a clown no she didn't yeah but also the only other current events that I have and again I'm sure there's a lot but I've been gone I literally oh I went to Maine had I gotta give a shout out to Maine sorry so first off I don't think it ever got above 64 degrees which was amazing secondly I did this buckles and banner show at Heeman Stock Farms It was absolutely beautiful.

11:23The setting, the scenery. There wasn't 50 head at the whole show, but those kids were so appreciative, so kind, so amazing. And I mean this with sincerity. Even though it was small numbers, the quality was so, so good. There was never an animal that walked in there and you thought, oh man, I wish this kid just had a better one. And that happens at most the shows, period. And you don't want to say that and Dale don't want to say it, but that does. That was never the thing. And there was some of them in every species that could be competitive anywhere in the nation. So it was amazing. That sounds good.

12:05And there was four motocross tracks at this place, Dale. I knew that you would just be in heaven. I am volunteering to do that. Right. If they're listening, please call. The only other thing that I know about is, which we haven't discussed this much, but Trump was renovating the ballroom in the East Wing, and now it's going to the Supreme Court. This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Like, Trump and his cronies put up all the money for that. This is not government-funded, okay? And they're trying to prevent him. It's already been torn down. They've got to do something. This is the stupidest shit I've ever heard.

12:47does not surprise me. Well, I have had a listener give me some requests to go listen to a couple other podcasts that have pointed out many situations that China is still doing everything possible to bring the United States down. I promise I will go do that and we'll have a China update next week. But yeah, they're still out there. I just have ignored them for a while and I have not watched much news and I'm probably a little better off or such, but I will do better. I will watch some news as we go into the primaries. I'm going to try to do better in September, but August has been a wreck for me in terms of scheduling. But, I mean, we are getting close to the midterm, so I'm going to try to watch more.

13:31But I still don't see any polling. I'm just saying. And normally, I don't have to look for polling normally. Normally, polling finds me. I turned on the news this morning for about an hour before I sat down to record just to try to catch up, and they did not mention the polls once. Zero. Very odd. It is. Why aren't animals drinking at shows? Chlorine. Only Show Fresh H2O neutralizes it, and they have three patents to prove it. You can purchase Show Fresh H2O at your local supply trailer or at swampbox.com. I would like to welcome back our longtime sponsor, Merck Animal Health.

14:14Anyone in our industry knows that effectively managing your time and hitting breeding windows are crucial to success. SenseHub Cow-Calf from Merck Animal Health gives you the ability to improve both. With 24-7 monitoring, SenseHub Cow-Calf helps save time spent on visual checks and delivers data you can use to detect heats and make informed decisions on reproduction timing for AI and embryo transfer. This changes everything. Learn more at sensehub-cowcalf.com. We appreciate Merck Animal Health. Today's topic, Ryan, goat trends with Dale and Ryan. That's right. We got our special guest in and we did.

14:57Is that one of my multiple personalities? Is that the special guest? It is. That is going to be it. Absolutely. I feel very comfortable that we can handle this. We've handled it every other year or so. We haven't. This is true. We have not brought a goat person in, have we? No, no. That's okay. We can read their minds. You are the specialist. You are the one. Well, I guess where I would like to start, and I'm going to take it from the mindset of a breeder, evaluator, just goat enthusiast is what I'll be today. It's interesting is goats have changed more than any other species in the past 10 to 15 years, primarily because they're the last one to the game.

15:00 Show goat trends and progress so far

15:41And there's more changes that need to be made to get them to look like what we consider show animals or show stock. When we started out, they were so light muscled, had to make hard push for muscle. They're so closed up. We had to open them up. Now, I think we're at a point that we have them opened up. we have enough muscle in the top end and we can start selecting for some other traits, fortunately, and that's a good place to be. I think we're going down a good path. Are we there when you're going across the country looking at goats, Ryan? Like I've said in the other three of these trending episodes, I think some of the trends are good. The majority of the trends are good.

16:22Some of them are bad. I will give a particular shout out to the goats. And in the last three years, I would say, and I don't know how they're achieving this as well as they do because it's not like pigs. They can't have multiple litters with multiple numbers a year. But I will say that the goats have drastically corrected the front end skeletal issues that they had there going more than any other species I've seen swing a pendulum that quickly. And I think that's positive.

17:00 Front-end width and skeletal correctness

17:03I would agree. I think a lot of things have been done very quickly. In the past three years, accessibility to bucks, using some fresh semen, increased embryo transfer. There's a lot of things behind such that have made that possible. And I've witnessed it as well. Do I think we still have some skeletal issues? And do I still put that at the very top of where I think we're going, is to continue to improve the skeletal build? Absolutely. No question there. And when I talk about that, not the fact that we can prop them up and make them look good enough, but they actually hold themselves together on the move. Their front knee is setting them correctly.

17:45Their shoulder assembly. Ryan, you want to explain the shoulder assembly when we get so wide it's set outside themselves? You can explain that better than I. Well, like when I was judging in Illinois, there were two classes that there were two really good ones up at the front. and literally both of those classes got sorted for me on how they sat down up front because and like this is what I was talking about three years ago I don't know why but the trend was to have them so wide through their front end and their chest floor like you could drive a bulldozer through there and when you do that they can't walk because their knee is so far outside their skeleton like you can't continuously just broaden the chess floor to a point that it's not going to affect the structural build and like i said and i think i'll make great strides and uh and i those two classes i said they you know this close i moved to the front asked the kids to back off of them looked how they sat down and one two here we go but i think there needs to be width in the chest floor to the point where they can still set down squarely,

19:00accurately, and correctly from their shoulder to their knee to the surface. And to be honest, you don't need to have them any wider than that. It does nothing. We don't need bulldozer wide. Think about when we made pigs that wide up front and how they crashed so poorly or so bad out of their front end. Their skeleton just would not hold up. It doesn't work. We need some chest width. We need them opened up in that fore rib. But I think there's a line there that for some reason we have judges out there that think the wider the better. Not how it's constructed or assembled, but just wide. And I'm going to pick on the full bloods a little bit and some of those judges.

19:40That's where a lot of it originally came from. I mean, Ryan, when you judge some of those do-shows, you'll see some of those kids that are used to showing to the full blood judge. They'll take those front feet and set them so far outside. It's crazy. And it just makes no sense. Just makes no sense. Maybe it's just us that... I don't think it's just us because, again, we and the goats, they have rapidly swung the other way in the last three years. If it was just me and you, it wouldn't have swung that way that fast. You did call them bulldogs on here several times. It took me like three years to make the bouncing go away.

20:22So I'm in the big deal. So I don't think that it's just us. And when I attend goat shows, I don't hear the nonsense about, oh, this one needs to be, this one's so wide and through shift floor like I did three years ago. I don't hear them talking anymore. I hear them talk more how they sat down and stuff like that. So I don't think it's just us. I'm not taking credit for this. I mean, I did my part. I ain't gonna lie. For two years solid at every goat show, I judged. I told them at the very beginning. Now look, if you're one of these people that thinks this goat show should be placed on the fact if a bulldozer can drive through the front legs of these goats, you might as well pack up and leave now because you're not gonna like me.

21:00 Hind leg, hip structure, and movement

21:09You didn't hide that at all. Well, I think just look, common sense tells you, look at the other species. we don't have this for the most part in the other species pigs did it for a little while and it was a train wreck and they reeled it back in i don't think sheep ever went that far out and cattle have had a lot quite that far out i mean if they did it was before our time which they may have but in general we just didn't go that far and this goes back to what we're talking with cade and and even even blake and matt a little bit that anytime we get a particular trait in the show ring that's trendy or popular, we tend to take it just a little too far. And that would be a situation to start talking about wider chested. Next thing you know, we're completely outside ourselves. And did goats need to be opened up? Absolutely. Are there still a lot of goats out there that need to open up some? Absolutely. But the top end is definitely there. And I don't think we have to worry about that as much. There is one thing, we talked about this in the sheep.

22:09When I talk about skeletal build in goats, I think where they have received the pass up until this point is that set to the rear hip and hind leg and particularly the set to that hind leg. Goats don't cooperate on the move very well. I mean, more so than any other species that are fighting the chain or fighting the halter. And when that's happening, it's harder to evaluate true movement. and if a large number of them are fighting it, it seems as though we give a little bit of a pass on skeleton because we just don't know for sure. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just the reality. And for some reason, it appears as though there are judges that aren't comfortable evaluating that hind leg movement and hind leg structure, just like we talked about before, movement in general on goats, not as comfortable and we're not as critical on those straight hawks or not as critical and they just don't get out and flex and grab and go from behind near as much as what we do in the other species.

23:12You would not be talking about me in this. No, I would not. Not whatsoever. And there are plenty of people sorting goat shows that really pay attention to this. I was visiting with another judge recently that, I mean, that hind leg is the last piece of the puzzle to get the whole package. Now, will we always continue to improve everywhere? Sure. But right now, I think there's as much room to improve the hind leg as there is anywhere else in the goat. And I think I could throw this into the sheep, and Matt talked about it as well when talking about sheep trends. So getting that set to that hock where there's some flexibility to the hock or the pastern isn't too straight, it's not too weak.

23:54Everything flexes and moves and stays in correct assembly when we ask them to go into motion. So skeletal build is high there for me. We talked about getting our panel, and you haven't got this organized yet, of 20 judges and run four species in front of them. He was firmly against that. He was firmly against that. So when I tell you skeletal build is on my radar, as a breeder, it's huge. Every breeding selection that Craig is currently making, that plays a very large role. As an evaluator, I'm going to make sure they're built well. as a promoter, all of the above, I'm going to continue to produce better built goats that can get out and move with some arrogance and they look like show animals. I don't know that that's going to be consistent with everybody because it just by nature, everybody has a different opinion on skeletal build and movement. So take that into consideration. What I do know, and Cade explained it well. Ryan's explained it well. A lot of judges will fall back and use muscles as a primary selection factor because anybody can see it. It's easy. There's not much confusion

25:05there. You can grab a hold of it and feel comfortable. This one's heavier muscle than that one. Well, the other thing we talked about is bone and feature. That's fairly easy to see as well. Now, there is some confusion whether it's truly bone or it's just hair or how they're fit and presented, that's all a little bit blurry. But in general, bone, feature, hair, whatever you want to talk about, that is going to continue to be a driving force. Not only in the show ring, but as a breeder, when you're selling those little goats, the buyers can see it. It's easily defined. Can a buyer see that perfect set to the hind leg as easily as they can see bone and feature?

25:45I don't think so. I'm not being negative towards them. but just there's misinterpretations. Everybody has their own opinion. But bone and feature, just more hair, more bone, the better, for the most part. I'm going to circle back to something. So you were talking about the structure on goats, and I think you had a very valid point that – two actually very valid points, which, Dale, normally I don't say those things about you, so you should be very proud of yourself here. First off, in general, goats do get a huge pass on structure because they don't cooperate on the halter or on the chain nearly as well as any of the other species. And so because of that, they do get by far the biggest pass on structural issues and they don't get sorted as much in structure and that first and foremost.

26:39Secondly, a point that you brought up that I don't know if it's ever been brought up on this podcast before, but is so true. Because goat's hip structure is so different than all the other three species, I think you are correct that a large portion of judges are not comfortable talking about it or sorting on it. But I get it's different. but yet the hip structure in other animals even though it's not the same as goats we have no problem talking about it and the differences in how that hip and how it's laid in there affects the hind leg and the way that they can move and all this other stuff so I don't understand why we don't discuss this more on the mic or we don't sort for it more but you're right, they don't And I think that's a shame because everything on the goats, I think from the hip forward, is probably pretty similar.

27:44But I think where the big differences are in a lot of those goats and where the little bitty determining factors, for me at least now, are in kind of the hip and the hind leg and how those things cooperate together. and I think I just wanted to bring up that I think you make a very valid point that people in general that judge kind of look over that because the hip structure in goats is so different I appreciate that because that is exactly how it is to simplify it Ryan when I'm watching shows and again this isn't all judges if that tails up and it stays up on the move and when they're stuck they usually call them pretty good hip If that tail's down, terrible hipped.

28:30Yeah, and the tail up or down doesn't make a difference. No, but it is an illusion that really, really sticks in their mind. I mean, you have the best goat in the ring and that thing's got the tail down. You're in trouble. You just are. It just is what it is. So that almost, it's interesting. You bring up the fact that we talk about it in other species. Not only we talk about it, but we talk about it a lot. That hip design. Probably in the other species, that's the most discussed, critiqued, whatever structural element of any animal in all the other species. Agreed completely. And it is probably the least discussed in goats.

29:00 Clipping, hair, and bone and feature

29:11And if it is discussed, it has more to do with the tail up or down, unfortunately. You were talking about, I want to bring up trends so I don't forget it or whatever. and you were talking about them checking for half an inch of hair at Indiana and all this other stuff. So one of the trends that I have seen here lately, and I think it's good, really good, is, and people are going to say, well, you can't do that with just half an inch hair, but you can. Now y'all are actually clipping these goats or the top end are kind of clipping these goats more like cattle where you go in super tight in some areas, leave it a little bit longer in some areas.

29:53And some shows don't have a half an inch hair rule or a fourth of an inch hair rule and stuff like that. And when you do that and you see that, you think that it wouldn't be noticeable, but it is noticeable. And when it is done well, it just makes the biggest difference in the world. And like you, I mean, you can get, you can see it when they come to ring. And then when you get on top of them, you can really notice it. And like, you're like somebody that's got their shit together is behind this one. It just gives you that sense of confidence, not confidence of the impression that there's been effort put into this.

30:36Yeah. I mean, just like I said, I said, I'm like somebody that knows their stuff has been on this one right here. There ain't no doubt about it. And, you know, we talk about on this podcast that you want positive impressions in everything, every angle, every moment you're in the ring. I'm telling you what, when I see one that has been dialed in like that, there is no more positive impression you can make on me in a goat ring. And it goes across species, it goes across the kid, how they're dressed, the animal, how it's presented, all of those things. And if you don't think that this plays a role in the judge's mind when one is presented like that or fit like that or look like that.

31:19Yeah, absolutely. It's there. It absolutely is. So that is one that I had down to talk about. And there is no question. We've gone from, we can wind the clock back 10 years, almost 15 years, and they were shorn fairly close, fairly tight. similar to where sheep, not surgicals, but mediums or fines possibly. And then we went to what we call cover coats, just a little bit longer haired. And now we've gone to guarding them or letting it grow out. And Ryan, maybe this is a little bit old school, but even if you're just working with a half inch of hair, we can still peel those tops down. We can peel the chest down. We can leave a little more hair on the sides we can peel their butt almost like blocking a steer just not as much hair to do it with yeah that's what i said even with a half inch you can still huge differences do do things and so like i said i mean and that's what in reference to the indiana state fair thing even with a half inch you can still clip things and make them look different and all this other stuff. And I just, to the people that do it and do it well, I'm telling you, I can't speak for

32:36every judge. But for me, there's nothing that makes a bigger impression on me when I see that. I'm like, yeah, these people, they know what they're doing here. And so I think that's a great trend. And I've had some people, the trending series is as popular as ever and all this other stuff and so they're like uh but i did have a couple people that know me was like y'all been a little more negative this time i was like whatever but so i wanted to make sure that i put in there a positive trend and i do think how they're actually just not sharing them off you're actually putting effort into clipping them and making differences and illusions and stuff like that. Kudos to you guys, gals. And while on a positive, I have to look hard now to find the poodle tail.

33:30Yeah, it's not as there much anymore. I'm not saying it's completely gone, but it's very, very rare. No, it's not completely gone because I did a show this summer. I'm not going to say where. And I'm not going to say, but anyway, the poodle tail was there too many times at that little event. And I was like, why would we have ever done that? And I'm not going to lie. It was in my home state in Texas, which was very offensive to me. So I was like... Yeah, glad we're getting away from that. Yeah. So yeah, all of that. Now, to be clear, there are shows that say you have to be under a quarter inch or you have to have them cover coated. No differences in hair length.

34:09So just because we're telling you how much we appreciate it when there may be three-eighths. You still got to follow the rules. Yes. Read the rules. I tell people all the time that I read every rule book and we make sure to implement it, right? Dale is lying. I read every rule book that Katie shows that, and I tell him because Dale doesn't ever read a rule book. But anyway. You're there to do it. I don't need to. Okay, let's Jen Psaki circle back to bone feature hair, and I lump it all together because I'm going to tell you that if they're big, fluffy hair, they're going to call them big-legged. Big-legged is popular, right? Yes, yes. That could be bone.

34:49that's probably in a goat more hair than anything. Is there differences in bone size in goats? Yeah, I think there is. But I believe from a visual standpoint, the hair is going to make actually a bigger difference in whether they get called big-legged or not, more so than the bone. I can tell you a fairly heavy bone goat that's slick-legged, they're not going to talk about it. An average bone goat that has a massive amount of hair and it was clipped and presented right, they're going to get talked about every time. and it adds to the proportionality and draws you in. And I'm glad you brought this up because we've talked about bone and feature on every episode.

35:32And I keep wanting to bring this up and then we've had a guest and they make some good point and I get wrapped up in it. So anyway, the big bone thing, I don't think it's ever going to go away. And that's cool. It's fine. Whatever. I'm here for it. I also want to add this, and I see this in goats just as much as I do the other species. There is a point, though, that we get these things so big boned that their joints are big and coarse. And that for me is the line where it's gone too far. And that's when I'm like, yeah, this does not work for me.

36:15I talk more now about joint size and coarseness of joints in all species than I probably have in my whole entire judging career. And that's for all the obvious reasons because we are in all four species trying to get them so big legged. But that's the line for me is that when those joints are coarse and big and swollen looking, I don't care. how impressive the size of the boner foot is after that because I'm out. And I hadn't got to bring up that point in the other ones when we talked about it, but I did want to bring it up here. And that is going to be the line, Ryan, that you're going to see gets crossed more frequently each year because we continue to select for it.

37:03And everybody's going to be different. There's going to be some that are perfectly fine with it. Just talk about as bigger as better. You're going to come in and want to clean the joints up. Someone else maybe floats in between. So that will be similar to the skeletal build and movement. There's going to be some differences there on where they want to put things. So I'm with you. I don't think bone's going to go away. I don't think we can grow as much bone in a goat with age as we do on pigs. I think maturity adds bone in goats, but I think it probably does more to add muscle and just flesh on that goat. So I'm not saying we don't show old goats because they're going the same direction as the other species.

37:45Older brings, that maturity brings more mass and a little more bone. But because hair plays such a huge role on the goat thing that the added age, that the benefit or the added bone from age is not usually a huge factor. It's more just the added mass and getting them stoutened up in terms of their body mass. but it is still there. I don't know when exactly you're going to say, okay, we've made that, we've crossed that line and made that jump. But think about the lamb industry when we went from the slick-legged suffix to some hams and then we went from just kind of normal shaggy-legged hams that had some leg wool to the massive leg wool that we have now.

38:31Slide steps, bedlock. Yes. I don't know that the goats will take it as far, but they are going to go down the exact same path. And I have no problem with it because it enhances show ring appearance and appeal to me, especially on a goat, that we're going to go from goats that are slick-legged, going to be a little harder to sell. They're not going to be appreciated real well in the show ring. Just like if you walk a slick-legged Suffolk in the crossbred lamb class, even if it's pretty good everywhere else, it's going to look out of proportion, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Yep. And it could be a good bodied, a good ribbed, a good, everything else can be really good, but it's not going to get along.

39:12I'm not saying it's right. I'm just stating that's the fact. And that's another thing that I talk about a lot in all species. And I think it is because this bone and feature trend is here to stay and I've accepted it. But I talk a lot now about for as much mass and dimension and width as there is on the top side of this animal, the bone and foot don't match. And so when you look at that animal from the side viewer on the silhouette, it's a little out of proportion. And I do say that a lot. and that, you know, you talking about the Suffolk and the Crosper thing, that paints that picture just so eloquently for me.

39:59And I think that's it. I want, if you've got a huge, ripped up, barely opened up, muscled up anything, and then they're standing on toothpick, it's not going to look right. Proportions just don't work. And you could put that same body type, that exact same body on some shaggy legs and you're going to, you're going to break your neck because you're back in. And again, I'm not trying to pretend that that should be a sole factor, but it's one of your eliminating factors that throws proportionality off so much. You're not going to get a look right, wrong, and different. We could get a good Facebook discussion on this one. I'm sure, Ryan, that all we're, all we're saying is you have to have hair on goats.

40:44That that's all we care about. That's not all we care about. But if you want to do well on the show ring, you might want a little bit. That is my suggestion. Right, wrong, and different. While we're talking about this, I'm going to make another plea. And I know that it falls on deaf ears. Y'all, please just stop with the fake hair bullshit. Just stop. It doesn't work. You've already made this plea. And I'm going to make it again. You told me that I should quit talking about the pig bouncing for 900 episodes, and I finally made a little bit of a difference there. So anyway, shut up. I do not. I saw a couple pig bouncers in Illinois, but it was very limited.

41:29It doesn't work, and y'all aren't good at it. I'm just being honest. And so just stop. At least when you show to me, for the love of God, stop. And I go back to, I spent a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of energy interviewing and collecting data from 40 of the nation's top judges in all species. And all of them said they don't like that fake shit. So it's not just me. I remember that. Yep. It's not just me. if you've got a little if you've got some hair missing down low and you can patch it in and make it look natural absolutely if you can put some on it looks good absolutely but that just isn't done as often as what we would like so be be cautious with it another another point and this is maybe not something i should be bringing up ryan but bone and feature across species has become so popular right now that you, and I'm going to use the pig ring, they are developing ways to give a bigger bone look that is not ideal sometimes. In other words, we always find a way and there's always going to be people taking shortcuts and so forth, but that one's a new one, at least

42:30 Weight windows and maturity

42:48relatively new that every day we're developing ways to try to make them look different, whether it's with hair, whether it's good, bad, and different, but those things continue to evolve. I want to go into weight, and I'm going to throw it to you, Ryan. Where is your window for a champion goat on weight? There is no window for me. I love it. Thank you. I was hoping for that. I assumed that. Yeah, there is none. I mean, make an argument. Make whatever you want. I think I brought up on here we had one Louisville with a lightweight that I'm going to say was 70 pounds or under not that many years ago I'm sure if you used a 65 70 pound go to the Texas major there's going to be people talking about it I don't doubt that and if I have one that's 65 pounds that looks really good and I have one at 95 that looks really good both pretty equal I'll probably lean towards the heavier one if everything else is equal but I'll tell you what I won't If the flat best one is a light one, I'm landing there.

43:50If the best one's a heavy one, I'm landing there. I think people do box themselves into a weight range for some reason on goats. And there is no justified reason. If you want to pretend, oh, this is going to get Facebook wound up. If you want to pretend that show goats have some connection or relevance to the commercial goat industry, you've really lost your mind. And if you're going to do that, we'd be selecting goats that weigh between 50 and 60 pounds. And that probably isn't going to happen. So good luck. And I don't think there's any relevance in any species to the commercial industry, to any of the showering industries.

44:33And that little man got all worked up on Facebook about our podcast. And Blake wanted to do bad things and all this other stuff. But there's not. And I've said that for years. and I'll stand by that. There is the least in the goat show ring. None. Absolutely zero. To the point the judges don't even know what a true market weight should be on a goat, for the most part. Not saying everybody, but most judges. But that's my point. There's none. And so you were talking about if one's 70 or one's 95 or whatever, you might lean towards a heavier one. I'm probably not. And I'm going to tell you why. It is just a cold, hard fact that the heavier you get animals, more things can diminish or go wrong. That's just a fact. I'll argue that with anybody.

45:30and so not that I would discount I mean if I say all the time if a heavy weight comes in there of any species and it can still move effortlessly and all this other stuff and looks useful I'm in but more times than not those things are going to favor the younger lighter animals and so that's why we didn't even talk about this before but as soon as you said I knew where you were going I'm like there is no weight parameters for me. And the biggest thing in the goats right now, because of all the things that we've talked about, and Dale hates it when I say this, but anyway, I can read maturity differences on goats up front more than any other species. And y'all got some old, ugly-headed things out there showing. And it's just the truth. And so That is something that I talk about a lot.

46:32Throwback, look at the pig ring right now. Everybody says stout or skull. We want the old ugly head in the pig ring. Not you necessarily. They go for it. They are talking it. And I'm hearing stout or skull in the goats too. Oh, and between the eyes and all that other bullshit. And there are differences in skull shape. Yes, there is in everything. Yes, I know that. A lot of times it's just old. I also think that in terms of freshness, not just in terms of look, but in terms of handle, that's always going to favor a younger, lighter animal. And so that's why, for me, it would probably go the other way.

47:17Not intentionally, but the odds are in the favor of the lighter ones under me in a goat deal. I think in what you're talking about there is very logical. It's real. And I think that's why if everything was equal, I would lean to the heavier one because it's harder to make them hold together to that weight. But if there's an advantage that goes to the lighter one, I'm there. I'm with it. And more times than not, the lighter ones are going to be the ones that hold themselves together. They're going to look a little cooler. All of those things. So I am with you. I don't have a weight window. I shouldn't say that. I'm not going to probably dip down into the 50s unless it's a smaller show, and that's just the best one way we go.

48:02But if we have options, I'm going to say 60 to 120. That's a pretty big range. Especially when probably the lightest goat's going to be 40 pounds and the heaviest one's going to be 130. I mean, like... Yeah, you're wide open. I mean, I just don't see many 120-plus-pound goats that are still youthful enough looking and everything's right that you're just, it's not very often you have all those come across. Also, and I'm not picking on this because I don't think it's a bad thing. You don't see just a whole lot of 120 plus goats nearly as much as you used to. And I think that's because a lot of it is they don't get as big anymore because of we want more bone.

48:49We want more whatever. this slow growing thing has happened, they're not as stretchy. They're not as long. They're not as tall as they used to be. So you don't see as many 130 pounders as you did five years ago or so. And I wanted to bring this up and this will be a little bit negative, but in goats more than anything right now, one of my biggest concerns is in that first, depending on the size of the show, but in the first class always, you're going to see one or two that are ripped up, muscled, all this other stuff, but you know that thing's never going to be any bigger than it is right now.

49:38I see that more in GOAT than anything else. and so I think that's something that we should be cautious about because I see that more at every goat show I judge now than in any other species that one or two that come in the first two classes that have a lot of positive things going for them but you know without a shadow of a doubt they're not going to get 10 pounds heavier than that right there and if they do they'll be ill proportioned because their frame doesn't It doesn't keep up. Agreed completely. Well, I think we kind of talked about this, but muscle is a question that I get asked.

50:21And I think in lambs, we talked about it. And I know Matt was very strong on this, that Ryan, you and I share the same philosophy that we have goats that are heavy enough muscle. And once we get to that level that, yeah, they have enough, we focus on other things. where you described it, and I think the podcast on sheep trends or lamb trends, that sometimes we lean towards muscle because it's easy. It's definitive. We can see it. The person outside of the ring can see it, all those things. I think the days are gone where that wild, manufactured, muscular goat comes in the ring, and it's a huge advantage.

50:30 Muscle, sorting, and ethical practices

51:03I think we're at the point where we need to make sure they're muscular. and still athletic and still have some shape. I think an athletic shape in build is a good thing, and that muscle ties all into all of that. But we don't have to go to the wild part. And for several reasons, it doesn't make any sense to go to those extremes that we always seem to get to, but we're trying to avoid it this time by talking about it as it does bring in more problems. when we're trying to do ethical practices in the show ring. And when you take them that far, it's going to encourage more of those things that we probably should not be doing, period.

51:45So a simple solution, everybody says, well, we need to ultrasound these sheep and goats. We need to do more drug testing. We need to look at their carcasses. Sure, anything that is accurate and done well to eliminate some of those practices, I'm all in. But at the same time, you can make a lot more progress if the judge steps in the ring and says, okay, our top three, they all have enough muscle. Let's sort them on this. And that changes the entire dynamic of what... Changes the entire game. Yeah, what goes into the ring. And if you want to talk about evening the playing field, I'm not... It's never going to be even. But if you want to take out the ill practices, and I'm just going to talk about sheep and goats, and hell, I could throw pigs in there right now too.

52:31If you want to take those things out, one of the easiest things to do is bring judges in that want muscular animals, but they're not solely selecting on muscle to an extreme. And again, there's nothing wrong with a heavy-muscled animal beating a light-muscled animal. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when they're all muscular enough. Let's sort on the other things. And just because one is more wild-muscled, even though the second place has enough, that's why we beat them. So, Brian, you can explain that better than me. Well, I think what you're saying is 100% true and accurate. And in my lifetime alone, there have been times in every single species that we needed to select at that time because we were coming out of a trend or going to a different one where the heaviest muscled animals needed to win.

53:21In my lifetime, that's happened in every single species. Right now, in all four of them, at least at the top end, they got more than enough. way more than enough. And that's a good word to put in there to describe at the top end. Are there animals out there that are too light muscled in every ship? Absolutely. Yes. But at the top end, regardless whether it's a county fair or a jackpot show, a state fair, a national, Texas major, at the top end, they've all got way more than enough. So if you want to change the game and you're one of these people that doesn't like all the dirty bullshit that happens, then you should be the one proponing for judges that do say, all right, these top five, they've all got enough muscle.

54:13So this is why I sorted them this way. It has nothing to do with muscle. And at every show I judge, more times than not, I will always, especially at a sheep and goat show when they normally just want you to talk top five on the mic or whatever, I always say, but in all species, you know, this one and third, if you just want the heaviest muscle, the stoutest, the most opened up one, that's the one right there. And I point that out because it's a positive. It is a positive. But this one's third day because of yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck. And normally it's because the structure wasn't good enough for me.

54:55So I want that kid to know and I want that family to know, I see that you have the heaviest muscle one. I see that yours is the most ripped up. I see that yours is the burliest. I get those things. This is why you're not winning the class for me. Because I think it's important to make those distinctions and let those people know, hey, yours is built like Hercules. That's awesome. But this is why you don't win under me today. That one up front's got more than enough muscle, and he's better here, here, here, and here. You explained that extremely well. I hope our listeners understand that. I hope the superintendents at shows and even those judging out there, I mean, if you want to slow up the bullshit and the unethical practices that everybody's complaining about.

55:43That's the way to change the fact. It is. It's that simple. Do I want them to continue to work on ultrasounding? And would I love for every show that's terminal to have somebody that understands what they're doing look at those carcasses? Absolutely. and we would slowly make changes if you could do that. This is game changing pretty much overnight. That's how quick. And I'm going to say this, and I've said this on here before. You can put every rule in the world in there. And I think that we are coming to a point where they're going to have a deal soon that can identify if there's an issue with one live that's been altered, whatever.

56:25I think that's probably in the next five years. I welcome that. All this other stuff. I go back to this. And until the masses know that no matter how many rules you have or how many ultrasound guns you run or whatever all this other stuff, know that these shows are taking these rules seriously. and if you break the rules and you get caught, you get kicked out, and you don't get to participate again, it's not going to change anything. Because when we brush it under, and I don't want any kid to go through what I went through.

57:07I don't. But when you brush it under the carpet and nobody thinks that there's any hard and fast consequences for breaking the rules, it's not going to change. The way to change it, the quickest, is just what we're saying. Agreed completely. That's good. I think arrogance, show ring presence is the last thing that I have to talk about. And as we evolve in goat selection, genetics, management, all those things, and I'm with Ryan, we've made so much progress, especially in the past three years, that these things are looking like show animals.

57:30 Show ring presence and body condition

57:48not just show animals, but elite show animals like we've seen in the other species for years. We're there on the goats right now. And when we get to that point, when we have them built right, when we have enough muscle in there, when we have them proportioned, when we have some leg hair on them, all of those things that we've talked about today, then throw that head up in the air like an Arabian pony and let them just trot through that ring. Bring that arrogance, bring that confidence that you can see in that animal itself that, hey, I'm a show animal. And I don't know how to put it into words, Ryan, but certain animals, whether they're in the show ring or stand in the pen, they're showing themselves off all the time.

58:28I call it arrogance. Yeah. No, it's there. And just like we talked about on the front end structure, I think there's been more progress made in the goat side in terms of that show ring look, neck, head, carriage, all those things. here in the last couple of years than probably is any other species. And they do look elite. And I don't understand this. And maybe it's just because my brain works so differently. I think the easiest species in the world to sort is goats. I just do. And I would think that I think other people think it's probably the hardest.

59:09And for me, it's just absolutely the easiest because those elite ones are there. there's a middle and then there's a bottom and it's just more obvious to me in the goats right now than any other species here's the elite here's the middle ground here's the bottom man and it just sticks out like a sore thumb as they come into me and so I don't under because like I get this one I get this question asked more than anything what do you like judging the most pigs what's the easiest to sort goats and it just is but when I say go to the easiest to sort almost every time, oh no way, that's got to be the hardest not for me and I just think that it's just that clear here's the three that are at the top that one, that one, that one in the middle those are at the end and I think the little things that we talk about the head and neck cares, the arrogance, the presence the cockiness of those animals, all that, you can read that as soon as they hit the gate.

1:00:20And those are going to go to the top for me. It is very simple, isn't it? I think so. I do too. And part of this goes back to we're still evolving in the goats and there's a bigger variety from the just traditional old show goat to the very elite ones. And it just is what it is. so no that that is good i i i enjoy this i i think the goats are going to continue to look more like elite show animals each and every year and i think they've made a lot of progress and i don't see any reason we won't continue down that path one one little additional thing and i know that we've spent a while on this and whatever and this will still be the shortest one because we have another guest offering their opinions but you and i have definitely talked more on this one than the other ones uh in terms of handle i again getting them fat doesn't make them whiter so y'all eat goats that's good that you bring this in go easy on that because you're not fooling the majority of us and there's no sense in it and of all the species i'm gonna tell y'all in breeding and

1:01:38market, goats has the biggest problem with obese animals. And that's just, whether y'all say I'm negative or not, you're the species that has the issue right now. I see it more on the breeding side than I do the market side, but it's an issue. I think we've got some pigs that are so counterfeit in terms of how much fat to muscle they have, even though they look shapely and they look good when we actually hang them up. It's a train wreck, which they're just so good at managing and feeding, we can't see through it. But I'm glad Ryan brought that up. And the lamb ring, to make them rounder bodied, we get them a little fat. The goat ring, maybe it doesn't play quite as equal, but it goes that direction. And I am fearful that we are going to go too far and get them too fat because it smooths everything out and it's a cool look. But man, I just don't think we want to go down that road too far.

1:02:34Enough body condition or finish on them to smooth things up as long as you can drive them just a little bit and get them to touch well. And when I'm touching animals anymore, it's more about hydration and freshness and just how well were they managed coming into the show. And I know that's not what I'm supposed to say. I'm supposed to talk about width of rack and expression of loin or whatever we want to talk about. But I'm handling the goat. It's more about hydration than anything else. and usually you're not fooled are you ryan from what you see to what you handle no you've you pushed that very hard very very hard okay well i i am i am good with that i think that was a good discussion so it is now time for question and answer and beyond the ring is proud to welcome sc online sales as our question and answer sponsor it's the most trusted platform in the business bringing more buyers and sellers together than ever before in the show stock industry thank you SEO for your continued support of the junior livestock industry.

1:03:34It was good to see Roland. It was good to see Roland. I got to see him at Indiana and Illinois State. I only got to see him at Illinois, but it was good to see Roland talk to him. And he's very excited for the future of SEO. And so I look forward to it. All good. We have Chelsea with our first question. This, I'm going to read it for the most part. I'll paraphrase just a little because it's long. This was said at a county fair this week during intermediate showmanship. I assume this was the judge saying this. This kid just got done winning market, feeder, gilt, and pin of three classes. So I'm going to give this young lady because she did a very fine job.

1:03:45 Q&A: showmanship after dominating

1:04:18I'm curious how you all feel about this. I'm a breeder in a different state, don't have pigs or kids involved in this fair, but know some folks and they were asking me about it. So I think what they're trying to convey is there was someone that dominated the show and then they went on to win showmanship and the judge made reference that this person just exhibited A, B, and C and probably did it pretty well, I'm assuming. And use that as part of the justification for showmanship. Well, I don't know if that's, again, I wasn't there. I didn't hear it. but I don't I highly doubt that the person said they're going to win showmanship because they won everything else that just doesn't it normally is the opposite at the county fair level where kids won everything they're going to beat them in showmanship because they feel like they won too much I just talked about this on one of the episodes I am that person I have always been this person that if I take the best five animals, I want to be grand reserve third, fourth, and fifth overall.

1:05:27Because when I was showing the number of judges that came up to me after a show and said, oh man, Ryan, you should have been grand reserve, but can I give you both? Or something along those lines. It infuriated me. And so I have never been that person. I'm going to judge animals. I'm going to not judge kids. If the same kid deserves to win every damn class, that's how it is. and that's how it's going to be. I will say this. I think a lot of times showmanship gets into this area that they think that that is some judges use that as to reward other people.

1:06:11If you will just look at it with objective eye. Normally the kids that have better stock are also very good showmen. Not always, but generally. I said usually. That is much more the case than someone that does not have great stock, just has a nice animal or maybe an average animal, and then being an elite showman. That happens too. But more times, good stock go hand in hand with good showman. Agreed. Good answer. If that man did say that as a justification, I'm going to use this kid to win showmanship because they won everything else, that's a real bad justification.

1:07:02I'm guessing it was misinterpreted or he misspoke. Right. If that's actually what was said, that wasn't a real great thing to say on the mic, but I'm never going to be the person that if they I talked about a county fair just a little bit girl. One kid dominated three of the species. One showmanship, all of it. When the animal's in the ring, I'm judging the animal regardless of who's on it. In showmanship, I'm going to judge that kid and their ability. And if they've won everything else that hasn't been tacked down and they're the best showman, by God, they're going to win under me. Period. Love it. The next question comes from Brittany.

1:07:30 Q&A: belly fill and microphones

1:07:46Ryan and Dale, can you please elaborate on show day fill for goat wether dams? What does that look like? How quickly can fill be adjusted in 48 hours prior to the show? What products do we use? Thank you for all the education and laughs on the podcast. Well, Mr. Goat Guru of the world, get after it. I'm happy. So, wether dams, to me, the fill on a wether goat or a wether dam, Not much difference. I don't need them overextended in their belly. I don't want them sucked in. I want, so we have that proportional, youthful, fresh look. And that would be, we have in some full bloods or in some goat genetics, we have what we call boar belly, where they really gas up high on both the left and the right side.

1:08:36And when that is protruding at that level, it's a little distracting and takes away from the look. So I want to bring that down. I don't want them sucked in. I don't want them over the rumen overextended. So there's a happy medium in there and it's hard to maybe describe versus look at. But I think we can adjust that significantly in the last 48 hours. I would prefer, and traditionally speaking, and I can go across species, people would pull water harder to try to adjust that fill. I strongly encourage to leave that water in there and let them continue to drink a lot of water, especially if we're trying to pull belly off or if we're trying to put it on, make sure they get as much water before they walk in the ring as they possibly can if they're a little empty.

1:09:22We can drench it in better yet, easier yet. But that pulling the water two days ahead of time, as we pull the water out of that animal, remember 80% of muscle is water and you start to dehydrate them, you're going to start to shrivel up a little bit. So be careful. I recommend pulling feedback maybe even two or three days out if you think we've got a fairly large belly that's gassing up. So let's be conscious of what we put in there and eliminate some of that fermentation gas that's going on. And you can help by putting more water through them. And most of that water is going to come out within probably six to eight hours. So you can continue pushing fluids up until that point pretty hard without affecting belly during the show.

1:10:07So that is important to understand. Water, water, water. six to eight hours out, let's slow up a little bit if we're too big-bellied. But feed is probably going to do more to adjust that. As we pull back, let's say we pull back to half feed three or four days out. And then as we go into show morning, if we're a little big, we just don't feed much that morning. So it can be adjusted. What products do we use? I'm not using any products. Sometimes people use some Gas-X if we think that we're fermenting a little bit more than ideal. Some will maybe use a little bit of mineral oil to calm that rumen fermentation and the bugs and the rumen just a little bit.

1:10:46But for the most part, we're adjusting feed and at the end, adjusting water. And if we need more fill, the easiest way to put it on, if you're allowed to drench and they take the drench, well, it's just put it into them through a drench gun and we can make a lot of progress and hydrate them at the same time. So there are those things we can do. So just be smart about it. I prefer on most animals to pull the, on goats, I'm going to say to pull the feed to bring the belly down versus pulling water back too far in advance. The final question comes from Jason. Love the podcast and all you both do for our industry. I had a chance to watch the Illinois Weather Series Goat Show at the Illinois State Fair that Ryan recently judged.

1:11:29There were more people there that night than has ever been at the Illinois State Fair Goat Show. I wanted to thank Ryan for making the trip to Illinois. And my question is, what does a judge do when the microphone will not function well? There it is. Not to shoot yourself. And not to show frustration. How'd you do there? I don't know. I probably looked pretty frustrated when I threw down the mic in the champion drive and just walked over to the rail and yelled instead of trying to whatever. And I know I said on the microphone, this mic hates me multiple times. But there were a lot of people there. And I don't think people understand, and especially if you've never judged, you don't understand how important the microphone is.

1:12:18because I associate this with every time that you step into a ring, it's kind of like going into battle because you know that there are going to be people on the outside of the ring that are just ready and willing to rip you apart no matter what kind of performance you give. So if you go into battle and you run out of bullets, you're probably going to get real anxious and really upset and very, very nervous. Well, when you have a microphone that every fourth word is all they hear, that's basically the same as you running out of bullets.

1:13:04Then when you don't have a microphone that works at all, you don't even have a gun out there. You're just out there trying not to get mowed down. And it is important. And it is frustrating. when they don't work. And, you know, first couple classes, the guy that was the announcer was like, talk soft or do all. I tried everything in the world because I know he speaks on it every year and he's trying to help. I tried to make every correction in the world. And it just, I couldn't ever get it to do anything. And so, yeah, it's frustrating. Not only because you can't hear, I want those families to know and understand why they are placed the way they are under me.

1:13:49I don't want anybody leaving there questioning because they can't hear me. And so, yes, very unfortunate situation. It was frustrating, but I did the best that I could. But at the end, I literally just put the microphone down on the table and the grand team and drive walked over and talked on the rail. And I did have one person tell me that was on the other side, We could still hear you behind you. I was like, well, I guess I should have just done that the whole show. It was tough. But that's it. You're going out there preparing for battle, and you run out of bullets or you don't have a gun.

1:14:33It's hard to do. It's just very hard to survive. That's the best analogy I can give. Agreed 100%. And the next day, the judge had problems with it again. So we're going to fix that. Even if we have to GoFundMe, we're going to get it done one way or another. Well, Ryan, that was good. I hope our audience enjoys the trending series. I know it's always very, very popular and highly requested. And this was the first time we did all four weeks back to back. So there you go. Absolutely. With that, be safe. Y'all come back now, you hear? I'm out.